Curse

arcanemacabre · Oct 16, 2007, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Surely its worse to have this "I want to look better then you" mentality then to have a "I want to be more powerfull then you" mentality.

No, it's not. If you feel it is, then that is where we differ entirely, and why we will never see eye to eye on this issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I would even go as far as saying GWEN titles are some of the easiest ingame to max out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Likelytodie

I agree more with Fish that anything. It's not difficult to get these titles...

Well duh. Of course they're easy! That is the point - there is no skill involved with acquiring these titles anyway. People are being awarded by simply applying time, not skill. The mentality that one must 'work harder' (grind) rather than working smarter (skill) is something that managers at fast food restaurants try to instill in their employees. The most successful are those who find a way to be more efficient, rather than surviving off the sweat of their brow. Why is it so backasswards in GW, now?

freekedoutfish · Oct 16, 2007, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Well duh. Of course they're easy! That is the point - there is no skill involved with acquiring these titles anyway.

Then if their easy to do, why complain?

arcanemacabre · Oct 16, 2007, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Then if their easy to do, why complain?

Reading the whole post helps.

EDIT: Sorry, let me clarify a bit. Easy/Hard is a measure of skill. These titles are a measure of time - as in they require lots of time. How easy they are plays no part in the complaint of acquisition.

MithranArkanere · Oct 16, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

That's the whole definition of Grind titles.

You can kill once most of those creatures. Then... to get the title... you have to kill them...

MORE THAN ONCE.

Ok, maybe once was just luck, so 2 or 3 would be needed that was your skill and not just luck with PUGs... but... then again... 10 times... 100 times... 1000 times... that's not to test luck or skill... that's to waste time in a single spot making the same thing. Books fix that for Eye of the North.

But there are no Books in Factions or Nightfall.

bilateralrope · Oct 16, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

Nothing in PvE should ever be account based aside from storage (which is a necessary concession in an item collection game like this).

Why should everything in PvE be character based ?

I'm going to ignore all your comments on armor because I view it as a vanity item, so I don't really care about grinding for it. It I did care about grinding for armor, I'd of complained about FoW armor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Well im sorry, but IMO it still harks back to this idea of... what were you expecting when you made a new char?

I was expecting to repeat the content until I had completed it all once. Not repeat it all several times on each character ?

Quote:

Did you expect all the content to suddenly change and become random and original and new? I hope not! Ofcourse you were going to haave to redo the same stuff. I just cant understand how you can complain about re-plying the same content again and havng to reearn the same points, after you have knowingly made a new char.

What about characters that were created before ANET introduced the benefits for grinding up titles ?

Quote:

Please try to grasp that rank 10 on the gwen reputation points is not going to take a staggering amount of effort. You get 20k for redoin all quests and about 30-40k for redoing all dungeons.

As you said earlier, that is 5-6 repeats per rep title. So 20 repeats for each character.

Quote:

Do the maths and you can see reaching the 160k max isnt going to take much. Even casual players can manage that easily.

Yes, its like that for your first character. But then we have to do it all over again for our second character. Then our third character. Then our Forth. The the 5th character. It was while I was working on my 6th character (not counting deleted ones) that ANET added the Sunspear and factions PvE only skills.

Quote:

Your still trying to put some critical importance on the pve only skills in GWEN, when it doesnt exist. Using those pve only skills at max levels isnt going to suddenly make you a better player over night. Most of those pve only skills are very similar to existing skills, but just a bit sooped up.

So your okay with stat boosts that come from grinding, but only if they give small advantages ?
If so, where do you draw the line between what is an acceptable stat boost for grinding and what isn't ?
If its based on what is needed to complete the game, which players skill level do you base this off ?

Quote:

Your not being asked to reach rank 5 by doing anything other then completing all aspects of the game. If you dont like finishing all aspects of a game before you unlock stuff then why play an RPG or MMO?

I chose Guild Wars over other MMO's because once you had completed a task once. But grind based titles require to repeat an identical task several times even if you did it perfectly the first time. Personally I make new characters because I want to experience the task differently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

How about you stop lying?
R5 Ebon Vanguard. Just by playing the game and completing dungeons. Bwahahaha!

If you turn in the NM books you get enough points in it. Also if you turned in your books before ANET increased their reward get yourself a new book and you will be able to get it filled up for 100g per page (this only works once), then get more gold back for turning it in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Likelytodie

Only solution I could agree with here, would be Snow's, but even that seems to much. I agree more with Fish that anything. It's not difficult to get these titles, and even a casual player should have little trouble getting them (even if not the max level, a sufficient level for it to be effective) simply through quests, dungeons, etc.

So where do you draw the line at where grind becomes acceptable ?
Why do you chose that position ?

Also could we stop confusing difficult tasks with once that are easy but require large time investments.

freekedoutfish · Oct 16, 2007, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Reading the whole post helps.

EDIT: Sorry, let me clarify a bit. Easy/Hard is a measure of skill. These titles are a measure of time - as in they require lots of time. How easy they are plays no part in the complaint of acquisition.

While I agree some aspects such as luxon/kuzack, wisdom and treasure hunting titles take a stupid amount of time to increase.

I wont agree that GWEN titles take a huge amount of time to max, especially rank 5 for armor and weapons.

I admittadly having maxed any out yet, but considering it has only taken about 3-4 weeks to reach rank 8 on nearly all of them... that isnt a huge amount of casual play.

Its only another 80k (give or take to max levels), so if I choose to exceed rank 8 then it shouldnt take that long just filling my handbook and dungeon book a few times.

Something I dont mind doing because i play GWs to re-do quests and dungeons and missions anyway.

So time isnt always a factor either.

End result = most of what you call grind isnt hard to achieve and doesnt take huge amounts of time.

Some does, but the majority such as gwen titles dont.

arcanemacabre · Oct 16, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I wont agree that GWEN titles take a huge amount of time to max, especially rank 5 for armor and weapons.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing this up, because I surely am not. This is about skills (which are affected entirely by the rank of these titles), not armor (which you can purchase at max level elsewhere) and weapons (which you can purchase at max level elsewhere). The change to the books is more than sufficient for allowing easy (and quick) access to armor and weapons after completing GW:EN. If it was a complaint of mine before, it isn't now. Keep to the issue - skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I admittadly having maxed any out yet, but considering it has only taken about 3-4 weeks to reach rank 8 on nearly all of them... that isnt a huge amount of casual play.

Yes, that is, especially for a 'reward' that is not vanity. If it took you that long to get a cool skinned weapon or armor, I'd say it was perfect. Or hell, it could take a year of grinding to get that cool skin and it wouldn't bother me.

Besides, it took you that long on... say it with me.... ONE CHARACTER. This is the whole point of this thread. Even with it taking that long, let people with multiple characters have that accomplishment (if you can call it that) on the whole account. So it won't take a month or more just grinding for rep titles times the number of characters they have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

End result = most of what you call grind isnt hard to achieve and doesnt take huge amounts of time.

Again, it isn't hard to achieve, but it does take a huge amount of time. But then again, that is subjective, isn't it? I could turn around and say that title that takes 2 years to get doesn't take huge amounts of time, and you know what: I'd be right. Why? Because it would be my opinion. I say these do take too long, you say they don't. Some agree with you, some agree with me.

Here's the real deal, freeked. If they made these titles account-wide, what harm exactly would it do to you, and those who agree with you? Now consider what good it would do for me and those who agree with me. What are the reasons to not making them account-based? "They're easy!" and "They don't need to be!" aren't reasons.

Emik · Oct 17, 2007, 12:02 AM // 00:02

And still they keep on going...
The real issue at hand here is having to confront yourself with the fact that you cannot play each character as much as the other and if you can't make peace with that don't play them.
Sooner or later you'll have to really stand still for a second and watch what you are doing...
Reputation Points are so far NOT needed apart from 2 being Sunspear and Allegiance. Apart from that there is not a single soul in the entire game forcing you to do something just because you want to express your vanity over some items in the game that you really want to have.
If you can't understand that then you're just not in the right game.
Things in an RPG take time and they do so in every single one apart from this....
GW was the one game that tried to counter that by making things easily accessible to people.
In the end they too have to give in to the fact that it's the grinding that keeps the playerbase attached to their product.
What has been the entire idea behind the game in the very beginning is now starting to have it's effects on people who really cba to spend time over a game that they in the first place already play for over 2 years.
If you really don't understand that then I'm sorry but I can't help you out in any way.

wu is me · Oct 17, 2007, 07:01 AM // 07:01

So... you say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

The real issue at hand here is having to confront yourself with the fact that you cannot play each character as much as the other and if you can't make peace with that don't play them.
Sooner or later you'll have to really stand still for a second and watch what you are doing...
Reputation Points are so far NOT needed apart from 2 being Sunspear and Allegiance. Apart from that there is not a single soul in the entire game forcing you to do something just because you want to express your vanity over some items in the game that you really want to have.

I think i've said this before.. but anyway. Its the titles that govern the way you play.
not too many ppl would play heros ascent if it didn't give you that cool emote, and surely nobody would farm 10M faction if there was no "Saviour of the Kurzicks"

So.. you would turn down a perfectly good system just because

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

If you can't understand that then you're just not in the right game.

Guild wars has updated/fixed/renewed its self on a number of occasions, and im quite sure its not the same game it started off as.
If a majority of people thought the same way as you, and that variety of characters should be discouraged from having multiple characters then I would accept this fact, and possibly move to a different game.. or i'd just pvp until gw2 comes out. But really most people seem to endorse the idea of Account based titles BECAUSE ITS A GOOD IDEA.

And LOL:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

Things in an RPG take time and they do so in every single one apart from this....
GW was the one game that tried to counter that by making things easily accessible to people.
In the end they too have to give in to the fact that it's the grinding that keeps the playerbase attached to their product.

This was probably the reason people chose guildwars OVER other rpgs..
I think perhaps YOU are in the wrong game -_-'

Laziness was never an issue!!!
If you were a pro grinder wouldn't you want to show off your hard yards across all your characters and not be noobified the moment you play a diff class?

BlackSephir · Oct 17, 2007, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Im sorry you dont believe me, but im not lying. I had rank 5 on all races withinn a week of playing. I started on 0 vangard and Asura and within a week I had rank 5 on both from simply doing quests, dungeons and taking bounties as I explored. And drawf and norn points are even easier to make.

Now this was before the 20k reward for all quests and the 30-40k reward for all dungeons. This means you can now easily top up any races that are harder to earn points for.

This isn't the matter of believing, it's just math. All EV quests and dungeons won't get you to R5, probably barely to R4. Unless, of course, you started playing at the double rep weekend or by 'exploring' areas you mean 'get in the zone, kill everything, repeat'.

freekedoutfish · Oct 17, 2007, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

This isn't the matter of believing, it's just math. All EV quests and dungeons won't get you to R5, probably barely to R4. Unless, of course, you started playing at the double rep weekend or by 'exploring' areas you mean 'get in the zone, kill everything, repeat'.

If its not a matter of not believing me, even though you were the one used the word "lying" then stop suggesting I didnt manage to get rank 5 after completeing gwen on all races.

I did and thats the bottom line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

...

Im pretty sure you were the one had a complete go at me, when I assumed in an earlier post that this was about the pve only skills. Thats why I went back to talking about armor.

But why do you keep putting some importance on the pve only skills and their strength depending on ranks?

I'm not agreeing with you because I dont see their importance ingame. A character doesnt need them, and especially doesnt need them to be maxed out. When ingame is there an instance (other then LB gaze) when you need to use a pve only skills and need it to be maxed out?

Pve only skills are on the same level as mini pets and armor. You collect them, but they dont have any baring on whether you can complete or play the game. Their just nice little skills to use to spice things up.

This is why I dont agree with people who winge about the pve only skills being connected to ranks, because your all trying to put some importance on them that doesnt exist. I understand you might like to have all skills because I have elite skill hunter and I know the feeling.

But do you really need all your characters to have all the pve only skills, and to have them all be maxed out on every character?

In 2 years I think ive only used LB gaze, that one which finds hidden stuff and that acid one against destroyers. But I wouldnt say the last two were critical. You're askin

You talk about earning these points requires no skill to do, and thats why it frustrates you! Thats why you want them made account based, because its just boring and tedious to earn them.

What if Anet was to suddenly add a mechanism to the game, which made earning reputatation points alot harder and required "skill" to do! Would you stop complaining? or would you still complain you had to earn those points still?

But surely re-playing quests and dungeons 2 or 3 times and filling your books equates to skill?
Surely doing them in HM requires even more skill?

There are ways to earn these points which require skill, tallent and intelligence! If you dont like bounty hunting (and who does) then play GWEN in HM. I expect that will satisfy your need to earn these points with more of a challenge.

But the bottom line for me, is your asking for an easier way to max out pve only skills that arent critical or important to anything. Thats why I have an issue with this. If they were I could understand your view... but their not!

bilateralrope · Oct 17, 2007, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

This isn't the matter of believing, it's just math. All EV quests and dungeons won't get you to R5, probably barely to R4. Unless, of course, you started playing at the double rep weekend or by 'exploring' areas you mean 'get in the zone, kill everything, repeat'.

Then how do you explain the fact that I did manage to get rank 5 in all the rep titles without repeating anything ?

Are you ignoring the increased rewards from the books ?

arcanemacabre · Oct 17, 2007, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

But the bottom line for me, is your asking for an easier way to max out pve only skills that arent critical or important to anything. Thats why I have an issue with this. If they were I could understand your view... but their not!

OK, and you entirely avoided my question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

If they made these titles account-wide, what harm exactly would it do to you, and those who agree with you? Now consider what good it would do for me and those who agree with me. What are the reasons to not making them account-based? "They're easy!" and "They don't need to be!" aren't reasons.

Seriously. It's as if I'm saying we can remove something bad, and you retort with "It's not that bad." Well, yeah, it's exactly that.

I prefer these skills (Sunspear and Kurzick/Luxon, as well) entirely unlinked to any titles, period. However, I am entirely willing to agree to this kind of compromise. I don't like this, either, but again - it's a compromise.

BlackSephir · Oct 17, 2007, 08:23 AM // 08:23

/sigh
Charr Invaders- 150 rep
Mano a Norn-o- 100
Service: Practice, Dummy- 100
Service: In Defense of the Eye- 250
Failure to Communicate- 100
The Smell of Titan in the Morning- 250
The Imploding Past- 150
The Assassin's Revenge- 50
Plan A- 100
Forbidden Fruit- 150
The Dawn of Rebellion- 250
Be Very, Very Quiet...- 100
Against the Charr- 1000
Falling Out- 100
Forgotten Relics- 100
What Must Be Done- 250
Warband of Brothers- 1500
The Hunting of the Charr- 250
Single Ugly Grawl Seeks Same for Mindless Destruction in Ascalon- 150

5100 from quests. All EV quests.

Now, dungeons
Catacombs of Kathandrax- 1500
Cathedral of Flames- 1500
Ooze Pit- I think it gives some but can't find anything about it on Wiki- let's assume 1500

4500 (or even 3000) + 5100 = 9600
26000 - 9600 = 16400
Hah, forgot about Rragar's Menagerie- 3000
That leaves 13400.
So, you got about 13400 for 'exploring' 3 explorable areas?
Nice, math is your friend and that's the bottom line.

Quote:

Are you ignoring the increased rewards from the books ?

I'm ignoring it because he didn't say anything about books- only quests and dungeons.

Equaliser · Oct 17, 2007, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Great idea /sign

The only problem I see is Anet will increase the points required for this type of title so the net sum of time of getting these title will be the same

bilateralrope · Oct 17, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

I'm ignoring it because he didn't say anything about books- only quests and dungeons.

I thought it was implied by the fact that his first post in this thread started with:

Quote:

....with this new update to the game and the staggering increase in points for filling handbooks on NM and HM,

But his point stands. After you complete all the content in normal mode once, you should have rank 5 in all the reputation titles. The worst you can say is that he forgot to mention the handbooks, not that he was lying about it.

And if you want to see the reputation rewards from each dungeon, just check the official wiki's pare on dungeons

BlackSephir · Oct 17, 2007, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilateralrope

I thought it was implied by the fact that his first post in this thread started with:

But his point stands. After you complete all the content in normal mode once, you should have rank 5 in all the reputation titles. The worst you can say is that he forgot to mention the handbooks, not that he was lying about it.

And if you want to see the reputation rewards from each dungeon, just check the official wiki's pare on dungeons

Quote:

Im sorry you dont believe me, but im not lying. I had rank 5 on all races withinn a week of playing. I started on 0 vangard and Asura and within a week I had rank 5 on both from simply doing quests, dungeons and taking bounties as I explored.

I think some math proved that doing quests and dungeons won't get you to R5

Popcorn Devil · Oct 17, 2007, 10:17 AM // 10:17

I agree, I don't wanna take another set of countless hours grinding on my other characters which I have already done on one, so many hours could be used having a life instead of doing an easy thing over and over again, which proves nothing in terms of skill.

=HT=Ingram · Oct 17, 2007, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Only thing I have issue with is title grind on non primary characters.

I couldnt care less about armors in this game. 1k max armor is all anyone needs to get. everything else is optional...

Weapons from greens. big whoop... Collectors and crafters have near free equivalents.

Consumables. Problem... GRIND REQUIRED. but thankfully only on 1 character on your account. Just get what you want and use them on whatever character you wish.

Slavers, Glints challenge. Problem... Need to finish GWEN. To date you can still do the shortcut, but Anet is actively trying to learn how its done to remove that feature. So far they are clueless on the correct procedure and they think its not possible, and any change they could make to correct it so far is undesirable as it would either allow Primary quest to become repeatable OR completely inaccessible after original completion. which screws up Hard Mode.

Closed dungeons, Problem, Need to finish GWEN to bypass grind requirements. Again see above.

As to the HoM stuff, Its only important on primary characters. The others Who cares, and even then it will not matter for at least a year or more anyway.

Look if you stick to the primaries and don't take the shortcut you can do GWEN by yourself H/H in about 4 to 6 hours straight. NO dungeons at all. Just primary quests. Turn in the book at the end and your at about rank 5. Or close to it on Delver. So there you go you get something. and you get a green droks key for a green weapon. Big whop. Sell off your tapestries, and move on at that point if you dont want the grind. But being FORCED to do it. naw people will not go for that. They just will avoid it.

freekedoutfish · Oct 17, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

I think some math proved that doing quests and dungeons won't get you to R5

You can try to argue against me all you want. Within 2 weeks of playing GWEN I had rank 5 on all races. No hardcore playing all casual. I did all quests, dungeons, took alll bounties while exploring! This was before an easy 20k and 30k from the books.

And the fact you completely ignored the potential 20k+ points from the handbook and 30k from the dungeon book just shows your not even listening to me. Lets assume you can get rank 5 drawf and Norn after finishing and your having issues getting from rank 4 to 5 on Asura and Vanguard.

You should have a spare 20k and 30k points sitting there to trade in. That is more then enough.

And do not argue against me when I say you should atleast be rank 4 asura and vanguard by the time you finish! I dont even know why your trying to argue against me considering I did all this and its a fact!

Its like trying to argue the sun doesnt exist, while you sit in the garden with shades on. You can reply all you want saying im lying, but im not, and your obviously just being really lazey and not even trying to earn points.